DUST Search - Black Jackal's Controversial Ideas #76 (Retooling the Weapons)

Pokey Dravon wrote:

But limitations force players to diversify and specialize, which makes working in teams not only encourage, but a necessity. By forcing people to give up something to gain something, it forces people to rely on one another instead of being a jack-of-all-trades.

Want to take out that tank? You need to give up some anti infantry to gain anti vehicle, or have your corp's AV guy jump in.

You want to take out that sniper? You need to give up close range to gain long range, or have you corp's sniper jump in.

You want to deal with those CQC enemies? You need to give up long range to gain close range, or have your corp's shotgunner jump in.

"You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles." That is working as intended, utterly and completely. You can quote real world military all you like, but at the end of the day we're all in Iron Man suits with Laser guns killing each other on another planet. Real world has some relevance, but should never be considered a baseline for a game like this.

So in short I have to disagree with you, you call it limitation, I call it forced diversification, and that's a really really good thing. Team combat should require a mix of roles, and I think Dust has done a fantastic job at meeting that end.


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The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 397	Posted - 2013.04.19 14:09:00 - [1] - Quote Before anyone says anything, the number 76 was chosen arbitrarily. I don't think I've have 76 Controversial Ideas... More like a hundred and fifty, but many remained un-posted. Now onto the controversy! CCP is doing many things right in this game. Let me be the first to say that. They are doing things right. But I'm really starting to feel they're putting too much EVE in some places, and not enough EVE in others. In particular, this applies to the Weapons. Where our choices are limited by a 'hard point' system. This works in EVE, but for a allegedly fully customisable game like DUST 514, it seriously hampers its credibility to claim such a title. The way I look at it, We shouldn't be limited to a Single 'Main Weapon' and a Sidearm. This isn't the way even current armed forces operate. I believe that we should have a 'Primary' and 'Secondary' Weapon System that can fit any weapons we want in there (with limitations applying to Heavy Weapons as per Suit). CCP is making Clone Count a resources, encouraging people to stay alive, over simply throwing away their lives to no purpose... a noble goal, but in reality, the current game doesn't support this. Why? Because if I switch to a Swarm Launcher Fit, Even with either a Sub Machine gun or Pistol, with Locus Grenades, my combat ability Vs. Infantry is severely limited, and being unable to match any of my opponents' 'Main Weapons' in any capacity, means I'm less likely to put my Swarm Launcher to use. This is the biggest fault in an allegedly 'full customizable' system. You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles. I chose Anti-Vehicle at the top, but there are many other situations where this would 'balance' out the game. Counter Sniping - Carrying an Sniper Rifle in addition to your typically AR Combat Lead-out would mean that you have the means to deal with snipers, without switching your entire fit to something unsuitable for close range combat, or even medium range. Corner SHOTGUN! - Throwing down with a hostile around a corner, you're firing bursts from your Assault Rifle, you fall back... wounded, and the enemy presses the attack. Behind the wall, you switch out to your Shotgun, you see the whites of his eyes and BLAM! This ability to tactically alter yourself to the situation is what DUST is lacking. So CCP, I implore you on behalf of myself and many others. Don't place limitations like this on us. And don't regress us back to single-weapon load outs that are 2 dimensional, lacking depth. You're doing so many things right, learn what almost every other modern warfare FPS has gotten right. Weapon Load outs should be freeform, and not limited. Heavy Suits should still be able to carry Heavy Weapons exclusively, while Logistics should also be limited to their current 1 weapon. This would bring a diversity based on flavour, as well as allow us the ability to fit GP Suits that can adapt to situations. In EVE, you adapt to the changes around you, or you lose your ship. The current system means we CAN'T adapt to counter a situation.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 397	Posted - 2013.04.19 14:42:00 - [2] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back. Tell me how that goes. 2 Weapons... AR + Rocket Launcher, or SMG + Pistol.... My father served in the Airforce, my Uncle still serves in the Army.. He carries His AUSTEYR, Mortar and Pistol along with a 50kg Backpack when deployed. The marksman in his unit carries his AUSTEYR, Pistol, and a Scoped Sniper Rifle.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 397	Posted - 2013.04.19 14:46:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: But limitations force players to diversify and specialize, which makes working in teams not only encourage, but a necessity. By forcing people to give up something to gain something, it forces people to rely on one another instead of being a jack-of-all-trades. Want to take out that tank? You need to give up some anti infantry to gain anti vehicle, or have your corp's AV guy jump in. You want to take out that sniper? You need to give up close range to gain long range, or have you corp's sniper jump in. You want to deal with those CQC enemies? You need to give up long range to gain close range, or have your corp's shotgunner jump in. "You cannot be equally effective in multiple roles." That is working as intended, utterly and completely. You can quote real world military all you like, but at the end of the day we're all in Iron Man suits with Laser guns killing each other on another planet. Real world has some relevance, but should never be considered a baseline for a game like this. So in short I have to disagree with you, you call it limitation, I call it forced diversification, and that's a really really good thing. Team combat should require a mix of roles, and I think Dust has done a fantastic job at meeting that end. DIVERSIFY to make diverse, as in form or character; give variety or diversity to; variegate. you would stil have teamwork requirements. You can carry 2 weapons. which means, 1 would likely go CQC (shotgun) with AR, or one Counter-sniper with SR, the 3rd may go AV with a Swarm launcher.. your 4th is Logistics, so he's got his Mass Driver (Or other weapon).
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 397	Posted - 2013.04.19 15:00:00 - [4] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: Daedric Lothar wrote: I would like to see you join some Armed Forces group where you can walk out with a assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, missile launcher, pistol and a SMG strapped to your back. Tell me how that goes. 2 Weapons... AR + Rocket Launcher, or SMG + Pistol.... My father served in the Airforce, my Uncle still serves in the Army.. He carries His AUSTEYR, Mortar and Pistol along with a 50kg Backpack when deployed. The marksman in his unit carries his AUSTEYR, Pistol, and a Scoped Sniper Rifle. Well, I see a Mortar as equipment more then a weapon, So thats still really 2 weapons. However I can see carrying a heavy weapon, a AR and a pistol. I'm sure assault will eventually get 2 primaries. That's partly it, but also things like Secondary Shotgun, or Bazooka.. those can be counted as weapons. And often Soldiers in AUS armed forces will carry a secondary CQC weapon for Urban Combat. In addition to their pistols.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 401	Posted - 2013.04.20 11:04:00 - [5] - Quote Powergrid and CPU would definetly force you to sacrifice something to fit 2 Light weapons (unless you take into account the sub-standard Specialist Variants. Even then you'd be trading a sub-par weapon for your 'Sidearm' But it would still require teamwork, but enable people to utilise adaptive tactics. My squad line-up under this method would likely cosist of. Skirmisher / CQC - Assault Rifle with Shotgun Combination. Sniper / Recon - Sniper Rifle / Assault Rifle AV Specialist (Heavy) - Forge Gun / Assault Rifle AV Specialist (Assault) - Swarm Launcher / Assault Rifle Renegade Build - Pistol / Shotgun (Possible now, but hopefully with a greater ammo reserve for the Pistol) Dropship Pilot
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 409	Posted - 2013.04.20 14:11:00 - [6] - Quote Galrick M'kron wrote: Sorry, but I don't think this is a good idea. Having two light weapons should be restricted to suits such as the Black Eagle scout. The PG/CPU requirements just aren't enough to get in the way of an OP fit. In-Lore, your hardpoints could be explained as a suit's ability to interface and aim-assist (project a crosshair for) one light weapon and one sidearm. Maybe it's tech limitations. The point is this is one thing where CCP is seemingly trying to be different when they shouldn't be. Most other FPS games out, even other FPS MMOs allow you to carry 2 Standard Weapons. Switching between the weapons is about tactics. OP fit? I don't think there would be such a thing. Define OP? Over-Powered is something that fit can do better than EVERYTHING else. Lasers are OP on there own? So... giving that guy an Assault Rifle makes him more OP? I don't think so. It gives him options to deal with Closer Range Targets, but so would a pistol or SMG. (SMG btw, should be a light weapon, not a sidearm.) PG Limitations will inhibit Massive Tanks and 2 Light weapons. CPU and PG requirements for Light Weapons are roughly double what a Sidearm is. This, in my opinion, is too much EVE in a genre that is already defined by the 'right' method of customization. They're trying in this case, reinvent the wheel. While the other wheels still roll well, and really have no issues about them. And in-lore... these guys build spaceships for a human mind to control thousands of different systems at once. They can traverse stars at Faster than Light Speeds. But their little computer can't handle reticles for more than 1 light gun and 1 sidearm? Please. Add to that, the standard SMG and Pistols don't have computerised sights, nor doe the Assault Rifles, Mass Drivers etc.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 418	Posted - 2013.04.26 06:33:00 - [7] - Quote The idea is to make each weapon a viable tactical option, and push the utility of the 'classes'. You may drop your second light weapon for a Sidearm in favour of a better Equipment Item.. since you'd be limited on CPU / PG. But the idea is to allow mainlining along a path, without completely destroying you ability to adapt to a situation short of changing your entire fit. I'm sorry CCP, but this is one area where you shouldn't be so different. Allow us to Customise our fits more, with sensible restrictions (ie. Heavy Weapons on Heavy Suits) etc.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2013.04.27 13:03:00 - [8] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: No Care to elaborate? We have a single limited BPC Suit (for those who got some) that wields a Shotgun and an Assault Rifle... this is a scout frame. We are getting in the future a 'Heavy Frame' that sacrifices some of its tank, it's Heavy Weapons, to fit 2 Light Weapons. It's called the Commando Suit. I disagree with the whole philosophy of a single Main Weapon and a Sidearm. Lore wise, there is no believable justification, because technology would ADVANCE. If you can have ships that fly faster than the speed of light, or RDVs that can do sub-orbital Vehicle Drops Remotely, and not requirte a pilot, why should the forces themselves go backwards. Point 2. The system still has diversity and implements MORE customisation. Bring 'Sidearms' up to the levels so they can be 'Main Weaponed' then give us the ability to Main 2 Weapons to adjust to changing circumstances. In this respect, the 'Hard point' System of EVE hinders customisation. The rest of the fitting is great. Customisable, and able to fit roles already, but the weapons need to have the noose around their nexks undone.